Legislature(1995 - 1996)

08/26/1995 01:05 PM House STA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
             HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE                            
                        August 26, 1995                                        
                           1:05 p.m.                                           
                       Fairbanks, Alaska                                       
                                                                               
                                                                               
 MEMBERS PRESENT (Via Teleconference)                                          
                                                                               
 Representative Jeannette James, Chair                                         
 Representative Brian Porter                                                   
 Representative Caren Robinson                                                 
 Representative Ed Willis                                                      
                                                                               
 MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                
                                                                               
 Representative Scott Ogan, Vice-Chair                                         
 Representative Joe Green                                                      
 Representative Ivan Ivan                                                      
                                                                               
 COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                            
                                                                               
 * HB 348:  "An Act requiring that all official interviews with                
            children who are alleged to have been abused or                    
            neglected be videotaped or audiotaped."                            
                                                                               
            HEARD AND HELD                                                     
                                                                               
 (*First public hearing)                                                       
                                                                               
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
                                                                               
 DEAN J. GUANELI, Chief Assistant Attorney General                             
 Criminal Division, Department of Law                                          
 P.O. Box 110300                                                               
 Juneau, AK  99801                                                             
 Telephone: (907) 465-3428                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Opposed HB 348                                           
                                                                               
 STEVE EMERSON, Intake Supervisor                                              
 Division of Family and Youth Services                                         
 Department of Health and Social Services                                      
 751 Old Richardson Highway, Ste. 300                                          
 Fairbanks, AK  99701                                                          
 Telephone: (907) 452-1581                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided Information on HB 348                           
                                                                               
 THOMAS J. SYLSBERRY, SR.                                                      
 P.O. Box 83054                                                                
 Fairbanks, AK  99708                                                          
 Telephone: (907) 479-7890                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 APRIL D. RODGERS                                                              
 212 Steelhead Road                                                            
 Fairbanks, AK  99709                                                          
 Telephone: (907) 479-8595                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 SCOTT TRAFFORD CALDER                                                         
 P.O. Box 75011                                                                
 Fairbanks, AK  99707                                                          
 Telephone: (907) 474-0174                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 THOMAS J. SYLSBERRY, JR.                                                      
 P.O. Box 83054                                                                
 Fairbanks, AK  99709                                                          
 Telephone: (907) 479-8494                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 VERNINA BERGEIR, V.O.C.A.L. Representative                                    
 21628 28th Avenue South                                                       
 DesMoines, Washington  98198                                                  
 Telephone: (206) 878-5135                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 JEANNIE MARIE PHIPPS                                                          
 Guardians of Family Rights/Victims of the State                               
 P.O. Box 704                                                                  
 Delta Junction, AK  99727                                                     
 Telephone:  (907) 895-4805                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 GENE OTTENSTROER                                                              
 Guardians of Family Rights/Victims of the State                               
 P.O. Box 704                                                                  
 Delta Junction, AK  99727                                                     
 Telephone:  (907) 895-4805                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 JODI DELANEY                                                                  
 Concerned Parents for Reform                                                  
 P.O. Box 56054                                                                
 North Pole, AK  99705                                                         
 Telephone: (907) 488-0334                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 PAT OBRIST                                                                    
 557 Fairbanks Street                                                          
 Fairbanks, AK  99709                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 479-2447                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 WALTER GAUTHIER, Member                                                       
 Guardians of Family Rights                                                    
 P.O. Box 2246                                                                 
 Homer, AK  99603                                                              
 Telephone: (907) 235-2809                                                     
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 LYNNE HOFFMAN                                                                 
 1320 Prospector Drive                                                         
 Fairbanks, AK  99709                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 479-2529                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Opposed HB 348                                           
                                                                               
 HARRY B. NIEHAUS, Member                                                      
 Guardians of Family Rights                                                    
 P.O. Box 56873                                                                
 North Pole, AK  99705                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 488-9328                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 NAOMI HODSON, Member                                                          
 Guardians of Family Rights                                                    
 P.O. Box 3687                                                                 
 Soldotna, AK  99669                                                           
 Telephone:  (907) 260-3521                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 SHERRIE GOLL, Member                                                          
 Alaska Women's Lobby                                                          
 P.O. Box 850                                                                  
 Haines, AK  99827                                                             
 Telephone:  (907) 766-2739                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information on HB 348                           
                                                                               
 RONDI ALDRIDGE, Member                                                        
 Concerned Parents for Reform                                                  
 P.O. Box 56853                                                                
 North Pole, AK  99705                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 488-5753                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 DENNIS SNIDER                                                                 
 1200 Pueblo Way                                                               
 North Pole, AK  99705                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 488-6438                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 DOUGLAS O'BRIEN                                                               
 Skid 18 Press                                                                 
 P.O. Box 73448                                                                
 Fairbanks, AK  99707                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 479-7543                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
 JULIE HICKS                                                                   
 Guardians of Family Rights                                                    
 P.O. Box 55455                                                                
 North Pole, AK  99705                                                         
 Telephone:  (907) 488-9328                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported HB 348                                         
                                                                               
 CHARLES MCKEE                                                                 
 P.O. Box 143452                                                               
 Anchorage, AK  99514                                                          
 Telephone:  None                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information on HB 348                           
                                                                               
 CYNTHIA HENRY, Member                                                         
 Fairbanks North Star Borough School Board                                     
 3216 Riverview Drive                                                          
 Fairbanks, AK  99709                                                          
 Telephone:  (907) 474-0034                                                    
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information on HB 348                           
                                                                               
 RAYNA HAMM                                                                    
 1100 Gilmore Trail                                                            
 Fairbanks, AK  99712                                                          
 Telephone:  None                                                              
 POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information on HB 348                           
                                                                               
 PREVIOUS ACTION                                                               
                                                                               
 Not Available                                                                 
                                                                               
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-58, SIDE A                                                            
 HB 348 - VIDEO/AUDIOTAPE INTERVIEW OF ABUSED MINOR                           
                                                                               
 CHAIR JEANNETTE JAMES called the meeting to order at 1:05 p.m. and           
 read her sponsor statement for HB 348:                                        
                                                                               
     "The intent of this bill is to have a video camera or audio               
     tape recorder turned on immediately at the start of the                   
     original, initial official interview with an allegedly abused             
     or neglected child and to record the entire interview and all             
     subsequent interviews with the child.                                     
                                                                               
     "When dealing with emotion-laden situations, adults'                      
     perceptions and memories are not necessarily reliable; and                
     children can be lead to make imaginary happenings sound like              
     fact and to finally believe these fantasies themselves.  The              
     credibility of all parties can become suspect and an accurate             
     objective judgment is then impossible.  This bill would help              
     dispel incorrect perceptions and allow fairness to all parties            
     involved.                                                                 
                                                                               
     "Last year's similar HB 350 met with strong resistance from               
     DFYS and other state agencies.  This year, an ombudsman's                 
     investigation found:                                                      
                                                                               
        - Arguments in favor of videotaping or at least audiotaping            
          are as compelling as those against the practice....                  
                                                                               
        - Administrative convenience does not justify lack of agency           
          accountability in this sensitive area....                            
                                                                               
        - Where video and audio recorders might have intimidated               
          children in the 1960s, the same likely cannot be said in             
          the 1990s, and finally....                                           
                                                                               
        - Social workers questioned by the ombudsman investigator              
          either said that audiotaping would not be a problem and              
         might be easier than note taking, or said that a videotape            
          would be the best way to review a case.                              
                                                                               
      "HB 348 will help implement sound public policy by requiring             
      accountability of agency action in the sensitive area of state           
      interference in private family life."                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES gave instructions for the individuals testifying via              
 teleconference and requested written as well as verbal testimony.             
                                                                               
 DEAN GUANELI, Chief Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division,            
 Alaska Department of Law, testified via teleconference from Juneau            
 in opposition to HB 348.  He stated five major points.                        
                                                                               
 MR. GUANELI'S first point was that child abuse investigations are             
 extremely sensitive, and taking children to a formal setting for              
 taping would interfere by making children uncomfortable and                   
 reluctant to divulge information.                                             
                                                                               
 MR. GUANELI'S second objection was that the bill was far too broad            
 in that it covers all people who work for government entities.                
 That means if a child tried to discuss suspected abuse with a                 
 teacher, a school nurse, or a public defender, the conversation               
 could not take place "without a tape recorder being drug out."  He            
 added the bill could be unconstitutional; violating a person's                
 Sixth Amendment right to counsel.                                             
                                                                               
 MR. GUANELI'S third objection was the possibility that if an                  
 interview was not conducted properly, evidence would not be                   
 admissible in court.  He noted the most crucial evidence is often             
 the first report a child gives to someone, and this could be lost.            
                                                                               
 MR. GUANELI'S fourth point dealt with the ombudsman's solution to             
 the problem of not being able to tell what went on in the (Bethel             
 case) interview, which was "somewhat repugnant" to him; that                  
 solution being, "We don't know what happened there so let's                   
 videotape everything, every interview."  He continued, "Even though           
 there were two social workers there, presumably both social workers           
 reached the same conclusion, but that wasn't good enough for the              
 ombudsman; they wanted everything taped.  I think it is                       
 inappropriate to introduce Big Brother into all government                    
 agencies."                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. GUANELI'S final point was that the thrust of the ombudsman's              
 summary was whether the interview (in the Bethel case) should have            
 taken place at all, whether the information available actually                
 justified the interview.  He noted we should want these interviews            
 to take place, in most cases, to protect the child.  If the abuse             
 had actually occurred and an interview had not taken place, the               
 parents would probably have sued the state because an interview was           
 not done.  He noted the DFYS is "damned if they do and damned if              
 they don't" conduct interviews.  He concluded that HB 348 is not              
 the correct solution.                                                         
                                                                               
 STEVE EMERSON, Intake Supervisor, Division of Family and Youth                
 Services (DFYS), Department of Health and Social Services,                    
 testified in Fairbanks as a "private citizen," stating the current            
 position of the DFYS on HB 348 is neutral, but he personally had              
 two areas of concern; one was practical and one dealt with the                
 effectiveness of videotaping.                                                 
                                                                               
 MR. EMERSON noted other states which use videotaping are not                  
 mandated to do so, rather they choose to do so in specific cases,             
 and they have state-of-the-art rooms and equipment conducive to               
 making the child comfortable.  He said all research agrees that               
 setting up cameras in full view of children is intimidating and               
 sends the message to the child "we don't believe you to begin                 
 with."  Each of the approximately 40 bush offices would have to be            
 equipped, and remote sites can't be expected to have the proper               
 equipment.                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. EMERSON added children usually disclose abuse over a long                 
 period of time; a videotape only represents a segment of time and             
 could be misleading if viewed as the whole case.  Also, videotaping           
 would not fix the problem of bad interviewing, so why not take the            
 millions of dollars this would cost and pour it into training                 
 social workers.  He said videotaping could help protect the                   
 perpetrator of the abuse rather than the victim if it intimidates             
 the child and inhibits disclosure.  The risk of a technical error,            
 something as simple as the batteries going dead, could cause                  
 dismissal of the charge.                                                      
                                                                               
 MR. EMERSON concluded the administrative responsibility of                    
 maintaining the integrity and confidentiality of the videotapes               
 would be an enormous burden to the state.   The proposed system has           
 no true benefit.  No legislator has come by the DFYS office to see            
 how busy the social workers are; putting this extra burden on them            
 would only serve to put more children at risk.                                
                                                                               
 THOMAS J. SYLSBERRY, SR., testified in Fairbanks, stating he had              
 over 30 years experience as a youth corrections officer, although             
 he was representing himself.  He said he had observed social                  
 workers all his life and felt they were out of control; he had                
 watched them destroy more families than they ever repaired.                   
                                                                               
 APRIL D. RODGERS testified in Fairbanks, saying the department has            
 too much discretion.  Her son was twice put in placements, out of             
 her home, which were dangerous to him.  One resulted in a drug                
 overdose and the other in a felony charge against him.  A superior            
 court judge stated the court had no authority.  Videotaping of                
 interviews would be a small check and balance, and it could be done           
 unobtrusively.  Right now the department is allowed more discretion           
 than parents have.                                                            
                                                                               
 SCOTT CALDER testified in Fairbanks, stating HB 348 is essential in           
 order to improve life for everyone in the community, especially               
 children, by reducing the threat that families of innocent people             
 anywhere, any time, and for no reason, might lose their liberty.              
 The government is attacking families.  Without a means to detect an           
 error, there is no science; without a test of a truth, no fact                
 exists.  He added the extra burden to social workers is not the               
 issue; it is the burden upon the state and the public which                   
 concerns him.  He cited a 1993 U.S. Supreme Court case which                  
 changed expert scientific testimony by eliminating the general                
 agreement criteria as a necessary test.                                       
                                                                               
 THOMAS J. SYLSBERRY, JR., testified in Fairbanks, referring to                
 initial interviews with children in which the allegations a social            
 worker puts on paper are not always what the children say.  He                
 discussed an interview he had observed in which the child was lead            
 on by the social worker's repeatedly pointing to the child's                  
 genitals.  He watched the child repeatedly shake her head, but the            
 written record was what the social worker wanted to write, not what           
 happened.  Taping the interview would hold social workers to the              
 truth.  He added children are not intimidated by cameras.                     
                                                                               
 VERNINA BERGEIR, V.O.C.A.L. representative, testified from                    
 Washington, stating children's testimonies produce unreliable                 
 results simply because they are children.  This is why some                   
 societies have prohibited children from giving testimonies in                 
 court.  Children younger than six years old cannot tell the                   
 difference between events that go on inside their heads and those             
 that go on outside their heads; this is why no society in the                 
 history of the world has ever begun a formal education until the              
 children are age five or six.  Most people do not want to know that           
 the government is so corrupt and so incompetent as to let a thing             
 like the McMartin case go on for five years when they knew the                
 McMartins were innocent the first year.  Videotaping is needed so             
 children are not interrogated repeatedly for long periods of time.            
 She knew of a case where a child was questioned for 12 hours.                 
                                                                               
 JEANNIE MARIE PHIPPS, Member, Board of Directors, Guardians of                
 Family Rights, testified from Delta Junction, stating the DFYS                
 needs to be held accountable.  Parents should be notified before an           
 interview is conducted.  People should be able to face their                  
 accusers.  Videotaping is one of the best ideas to accomplish this.           
 The taping should be conducted by an unbiased party not associated            
 with the DFYS, and the date and time should be on the tape as it is           
 running so people can tell the tape has not been tampered with.               
                                                                               
 GENE OTTENSTROER, Guardians of Family Rights/Victims of the State,            
 testified from Delta, noting the bill needs some minor changes such           
 as not waiting until after the interview to notify the parents.               
 Parents should be notified before the interview.  Files should be             
 started on social workers who lie to parents and lie on the witness           
 stand.  An outside unbiased party should do the videotaping.  We              
 need some way to prosecute social workers who do wrong.  Children             
 should be kept in the hands of their parents; even though some                
 parents don't deserve to keep their children, some foster homes are           
 even worse.                                                                   
                                                                               
 JODI DELANEY, Member, Concerned Parents for Reform, testified in              
 Fairbanks noting there are thousands of families in Alaska who have           
 been wronged.  Alaska leads the nation in false allegations of                
 child abuse.  There are no checks and balances, and families are              
 being destroyed.  In her personal experience, the system destroyed            
 her family when the social worker who did the interviews filed                
 false allegations.  There were no records to back it up.  If it had           
 been videotaped, the social worker would have been seen to be                 
 dysfunctional and Ms. Delaney's life and family would not have been           
 destroyed.                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. DELANEY added HB 348 was brought together as a first step in              
 changing the system, to assist and educate social workers in                  
 getting to the root of false allegations and to help people who               
 have been wronged.  The tapes could be transcribed so everyone                
 would be working with the same hard copy; thus no individual                  
 opinions would devastate families, and checks and balances would be           
 established.                                                                  
                                                                               
 MS. DELANEY noted if HB 348 is passed, minimum interrogation would            
 be required.  As it is now, a child has to be interviewed 8 to 11             
 times before going into a courtroom, and each allegation involves             
 a minimum of 80 hours of interrogation by "the division."  She                
 noted that no one supports child abuse, but "worst of all" is the             
 abuse the agency is getting away with.  The requirements of HB 348            
 would be a lot cheaper than litigation which would occur without              
 the bill.  She added it is a myth that teachers would have to run             
 down and get a video camera; teachers are there to teach.  They               
 would notify the DFYS or a trooper to do the taping.  If there is             
 abuse happening in the school while they are waiting, that is                 
 another problem.                                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-58, SIDE B                                                            
                                                                               
 PAT OBRIST testified in Fairbanks regarding her personal situation            
 with her two children, ages 11 and 12, who were taken from her                
 because of sexual abuse charges due to her giving her son an enema.           
 The state of Alaska claims it cannot help her, since the children             
 were put in the custody of their father in California, who is now             
 abusing them.  She said the custody investigator, not the DFYS,               
 handled her case and accepted false allegations.  She asked advise            
 on where to go to get help for families like hers who are torn                
 apart by false allegations.                                                   
                                                                               
 WALTER GAUTHIER, Member, Guardians of Family Rights, testified from           
 Homer, stating he believed videotaping interviews with minors who             
 have allegedly been abused is an absolute necessity.  Previous                
 testimony "shows clearly that testimony of social workers is often            
 at absolute variance with the facts."  Guardians of Family Rights             
 in Kenai has tape recorded evidence of a DFYS social worker giving            
 perjured testimony.  He stated, "Since DFYS, the court system, and            
 the state assistant attorney generals who prosecute these child               
 abuse cases are all paid by the same people in Juneau, none of them           
 are interested in enforcing the law between each other."  He stated           
 all people lie.  An interviewer's message has a large effect on               
 what a child will say.  A six-year-old child held in a room for               
 many hours will say anything just to be set free.  The DFYS                   
 officers counsel parents that if they will admit to the abuse, the            
 family can get back together.  Once the DFYS has the testimony, the           
 family never is put back together.  Federal agencies pay the state            
 of Alaska over $30,000 for every child put into foster care by the            
 state; DFYS is hungry for case loads to maintain their jobs and               
 their budgets.                                                                
                                                                               
 LYNNE HOFFMAN, testifying in Fairbanks, responded to the previous             
 testimony by saying it is a huge misconception that the DFYS is               
 hungry to maintain a case load.  She pointed out it is not the DFYS           
 or the social worker who suspects child abuse, but rather concerned           
 citizens.  The agency has been working toward a family centered               
 approach with the goal of offering services to families while                 
 keeping children in their homes and avoiding unnecessary                      
 out-of-home placement.  Contrary to what many people want to                  
 believe, social workers work very hard to keep children in their              
 homes, often being criticized for doing so by the community.  The             
 perception that social workers are "bent on bagging abusers" is               
 totally inaccurate.  In contrast to those who believe the DFYS is             
 overzealous, many believe the DFYS is not doing enough to protect             
 children.  Social workers would welcome the opportunity and                   
 capability of videotaping some interviews with children, to assist            
 all parties involved, especially those cases involving young                  
 children who are difficult to interview due to their limited verbal           
 skills, but requiring taping of all interviews would be intrusive             
 and expensive.  Funds could better be used to provide more social             
 workers and additional training.  She added that although social              
 workers may make the initial decision to remove a child from its              
 home, judges and other legal people are involved in the process               
 within 48 hours.                                                              
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES reminded the listeners that, although all testimony has           
 involved videotaping, HB 348 allows the use of an audiotape                   
 recorder if using a video camera is not practical.  She added that            
 amendments and revisions to the bill can be made to meet people's             
 concerns.                                                                     
                                                                               
 HARRY NIEHAUS testified in Fairbanks as a member of Guardians of              
 Family Rights, stating he would like to see it spelled out exactly            
 when video would be replaced with audio, and under what specific              
 circumstances.  If it were left vague, the DFYS would take                    
 advantage of it and misconstrue it.  No one should have immunity              
 from the law.  People need to be kept accountable and HB 348 is a             
 good first step toward this, but the time, date, and place need to            
 be part of the record.  Only under extreme and specified                      
 circumstances should audio be substituted.                                    
                                                                               
 NAOMI HODSON, Member, Guardians of Family Rights, testified from              
 Kenai/Soldotna, saying videotaping has been used there and it does            
 include the date and time so every minute can be accounted for.               
 She noted audiotaping can be started and stopped without detection.           
 Taping is necessary to protect everyone concerned.                            
                                                                               
 SHERRIE GOLL, Member, Alaska Women's Lobby, testified from Haines,            
 stating physical and sexual abuse of children is a very serious               
 thing in our state and in our nation.  The state has a duty to                
 protect children from abuse.  To imagine that DFYS social workers             
 will somehow financially benefit from falsely accusing people of              
 abusing their children is to completely misunderstand what child              
 protection is about.  She said some of the testimony she has heard            
 is somewhat frightening in its near paranoia regarding government             
 and law enforcement.  She stated the focus needs to be on the                 
 protection of children, and at the same time people need to be                
 protected from false allegations.  The option of audiotaping in the           
 bill needs to be discussed further, as well as the question of the            
 necessity of pointing a camera at a child disclosing abuse.                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES asked if any committee members had comments.                      
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER commented from Anchorage, referring to            
 the last couple of lines of the bill which read, "If videotaping of           
 the initial interview or a subsequent interview is impractical, the           
 interview shall be audiotaped."  He stated he had presumed it meant           
 if it was logistically impractical or if it appeared to interfere             
 with the child's ability to communicate, videotaping would not be             
 required.  He asked if that would be the intent.                              
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said she had intended to leave some discretion to the             
 Department of Health and Social Services in cases where the                   
 equipment is not available or the child seems to be intimidated,              
 though it is obvious some people would like them to have no                   
 discretion and to have everything finely defined which her basic              
 philosophies sometimes indicate is smart.  As HB 348 goes through             
 the process, it will be better defined.  She did not intend to                
 prohibit asking questions of a child just because a camera is not             
 available in an emergency situation.                                          
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES related her firsthand experience with an associate in             
 Washington whose four children were taken away due to a false                 
 report of sexual abuse based on a single conversation the father              
 had had with his 12-year-old daughter regarding menstruation.  This           
 was a case of damage being done by overzealousness.  Since these              
 situations occur when every single allegation is required to be               
 investigated, perhaps that is where we need to begin.                         
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES added the demands of the public to the education system           
 and the social service departments over the last 30 or 40 years               
 have taken away parents' authority in raising their own children.             
 Instead of having a program where teachers and social service                 
 workers encourage children to discuss problems with their parents,            
 parents are seen as the enemy.  She stated people are clamoring to            
 do something about teen-age crime and to make parents responsible             
 for their children, but how can we make parents responsible when we           
 have taken away their responsibility and their authority to raise             
 their own children.  HB 348 is a small step, but the system needs             
 to be changed.  The definition of "abuse" is a matter of personal             
 opinion.  She finds children are afraid of her now because they               
 have been told adults can be bad.                                             
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES referred to the case in Bethel which turned out to be             
 an unfounded complaint, yet the whole family was disrupted and                
 distressed and will never get over it completely.  She stated her             
 personal opinion that, though it is a hard thing to say, one case             
 of abuse that has gone unnoticed is not as dangerous as one                   
 innocent family falsely accused and torn apart.                               
                                                                               
 MS. HODSON agreed with Chair James, adding that teen-agers who                
 don't like being grounded or put on restriction by their parents,             
 who don't get everything just their way, can "holler abuse" and be            
 put into custody, given all new clothes and whatever they want                
 without restrictions.  Parents must be given back control of their            
 children, and videotaping will help prevent kids from making false            
 claims against their parents.                                                 
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES agreed and commented the cost and the inconvenience               
 would be justified in such cases.                                             
 MR. GAUTHIER asked if this hearing was being tape recorded.                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said it was.                                                      
                                                                               
 MR. GAUTHIER asked if hearings such as this are recorded, what                
 makes our children any less important?  People lie; machines don't.           
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE CAREN ROBINSON commented from Juneau that she would            
 like the committee to get more data, rather than just personal                
 examples and ideas.  She had some specific requests:                          
                                                                               
     1.  She would like information from the Departments of Law,               
         Health and Social Services, and Public Safety, regarding              
         exactly what is happening across the state.  When she left            
         the field in 1986, they were striving to set up sexual                
         assault interview rooms across the state, and she would               
         like to know what has taken place since then.                         
                                                                               
     2.  The Cowper Administration had a task force on child sexual            
         abuse recommendations.  She would like each committee                 
         member to get a copy of that, and she would like to know              
         which recommendations have been followed.                             
                                                                               
     3.  In the 1980s, an agreement was set up between all the                 
         departments on how they would interact on child sexual                
         abuse cases, and she would like each member to get copies             
         of that interagency agreement.  She would be really                   
         distressed to see Alaska go backwards to the days when we             
         viewed child sexual abuse differently.  We need to see how            
         we can make the system work better.                                   
                                                                               
     4.  She would like the committee to look at what is happening             
         now with the foster care review board.  Over half a million           
         dollars had been allocated for these reviews and reports.             
                                                                               
     5.  The child sexual assault center in Seattle could furnish              
         information which would help in making final decisions.               
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES thanked Representative Robinson for her suggestions and           
 asked her to help acquire all this information for the committee.             
                                                                               
 RONDI ALDRIDGE, Member, Concerned Parents for Reform, testified in            
 Fairbanks, stating mandatory videotaping of all abuse and neglect             
 allegations would be in the best interest of everyone concerned.              
 It would eliminate any doubt about what was said by the child, the            
 social worker, the parent, or the reporter, and make everyone                 
 accountable.  It would also eliminate the trauma of repeated                  
 interrogation to the victim, and it would eliminate all opinions.             
 It would eliminate false allegations made by children to use the              
 system as a vehicle to get out of where they don't want to be or to           
 get where they think they want to be.  Retaliations aimed at                  
 harming innocent people would also be eliminated.  Audio recordings           
 could be tampered with or erased.  Videotaping would have hard-copy           
 transcript back-up.  Alaska leads over 60 percent above any other             
 state in child abuse.                                                         
                                                                               
 MS. ALDRIDGE discussed her own case in which her son made true                
 allegations against a now-convicted pedophile.  His repeated                  
 interrogations could have been avoided if the initial interview had           
 been videotaped.                                                              
                                                                               
 DENNIS SNIDER testified in Fairbanks, stating his children were in            
 temporary custody of the DFYS.  Though he has taken all the courses           
 and done everything the DFYS asked, and his kids want to be with              
 him, the family is still not together.  He doesn't know where to go           
 to reunite his family.  They are bogged down in the system and lost           
 in the paperwork.  If the DFYS's purpose is to reunite the family,            
 they should do so.                                                            
                                                                               
 DOUGLAS O'BRIEN representing SKID 18 Press, testified in Fairbanks,           
 stating he entered the system through an error in the court which             
 granted him the wrong person's divorce and custody case.  After               
 several years of battling this, he completed two volumes analyzing            
 what is going on with the system.  The books are sanctioned by the            
 Children's Rights Council, numerous father's rights groups and                
 parental groups around and country, and point out that we have a              
 broken system.  We have people in two different areas, one being              
 the advocacy arena which is an adversarial system, and the second             
 being the social services arena where people are trained to look              
 for deviance and wrong-doing.  Because of this, they are not                  
 looking for any holistic reuniting or maintenance of families.  The           
 system is corrosive, it is damaging our families, and it is very              
 expensive.  If fundamental changes can be made, taking the system             
 away from an adversarial and advocacy system and looking toward               
 holistic maintenance of the family, we can have a good system.                
                                                                               
 MR. O'BRIEN added the system is much worse than people think.  Once           
 you get in, you cannot get out.  HB 348 can stop a lot of the                 
 coercive, illegal, unconstitutional gathering of documentation                
 unfounded on any real evidence.  Regulatory law violates the very             
 foundation of this country, which is the family.                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 95-59, SIDE A                                                            
                                                                               
 JULIE HICKS, testified in Fairbanks as a member of Guardians of               
 Family Rights, noting the purpose statement of the reporting laws             
 includes limiting the number of interviews children are exposed to,           
 and having the interviews videotaped will accomplish this.                    
                                                                               
 CHARLES MCKEE testified from Anchorage.  He referenced a brief he             
 is publishing and stated HB 348 does not deal with the problem that           
 people are ignoring the Christian foundation of this country which            
 establishes the true relationship of a family.                                
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES stated for the record, that written testimony from two            
 testifiers in Delta will be made part of the record.                          
                                                                               
 MS. DELANEY testified again, stating a study has shown that                   
 professionals are out to save their professions, and she is out to            
 save families.  There is a fear of exposure within the agencies and           
 we need a check and balance.  The ombudsman's report shows that the           
 interview notes from the case in Bethel were torn up and destroyed.           
 Mandatory audiotaping is already in the existing manual and it is             
 not followed.  In the middle of the instructions for an interview             
 it says "Now turn on the recorder" and this isn't done.                       
                                                                               
 MS. DELANEY continued it angers her that the agency doesn't think             
 the families who have been testifying have done in-depth,                     
 independent research, because they have, starting at the                      
 Washington, D.C. level and working down.  They know where the                 
 funding comes from, and they know social workers don't set out to             
 destroy families.  It is the system that is failing us; the system            
 is out of balance.  Law enforcement officers in this state are                
 beginning to have video cameras on their uniforms.  Why would the             
 agency disagree with having that for interviews with children?                
 Agency people tell her morale is broken, and the family bonds that            
 are broken can no longer be repaired.  She said her group works               
 with very strong professionals and suggested law enforcement and              
 social service agencies not underestimate the power of the people             
 they are speaking to, because they will not stop and they will                
 continue to demand the wrongs be made right, and the records be               
 corrected.  Professionals have called her, and professionals are              
 now turning each other in.                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. DELANEY added she supports mandatory videotaping, but she does            
 not support audio recording except in an emergency situation in a             
 rural area, though she does not see why that is necessary when all            
 villages are set up with video recording for their homicide                   
 departments.  The Citizens Review Panel on Permanency Planning                
 needs to become active as a check and balance for our foster care             
 system.  The Division of Family and Youth Services is where it all            
 begins, and that is the place to start.  She pointed out that many            
 of the people in her groups have education levels which exceed                
 those of the professionals who are out to save face.                          
                                                                               
 CYNTHIA HENRY, Member, Fairbanks North Star Borough School Board,             
 asked Chair James to give the status of the bill.                             
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES thanked Ms. Henry for attending the meeting and for               
 listening to the people of the district.  She answered the question           
 by saying the bill is in House State Affairs, and that it did not             
 have to have that referral.  She had requested a State Affairs                
 referral so she would be in charge of the bill during the interim             
 and could hold a hearing, although most of the scrutiny will occur            
 when the bill goes to the Health and Social Services committee,               
 then it goes to Judiciary and Finance.  It then goes to the Senate,           
 where it will also have committee referrals.  It is a big                     
 assignment to get the bill through the whole process in one                   
 legislative session, and it will take a great deal of public input.           
                                                                               
 RAYNA HAMM asked for clarification on a point brought up by the               
 first testifier.  She asked if Chair James intended the bill to               
 cover school teachers and school nurses.                                      
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied the bill as currently written does include                
 anyone who would be interviewing a child regarding alleged abuse,             
 in any capacity or location.  The focus of the bill is that all               
 interviews be taped in case suggestions are given to the children.            
 If a young child is questioned and an idea implanted, years later             
 the child can falsely remember the idea as something that really              
 happened, as opposed to something visualized because of the                   
 interviewer's questions.  There is a great deal of information                
 available now regarding suggestive interviews.                                
 ADJOURNMENT                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES reminded the participants that their continued input              
 and support are very important.  She thanked the participants and             
 adjourned the meeting at 3:00 p.m.                                            
                                                                               

Document Name Date/Time Subjects